Turbo hmmmm

[Arron]

right i am seriously thinking about putting a turbo on my brm but need some good advice first off is it possible to do with the k-series engine without it going bang and if so could you tell me all the necessary components to do a proper conversion.

[black_sunrise]

apparently it takes a lot of work to make it reliable. To have it done professionally to make it reliable you're looking at about £5500

much better off going for the T16

[Adam]

Depends if you want to add that extra 70kg up front with the T-series. Admittedly very quick in a straight line, but will lose out in the twisites.

You could source the blown K from the ZT but its only a low boost turbo. Must say I'm a big fan of the throttle body route and hopefully have a nice offering in place very shortly ;)

[Arron]

hmm throttle bodies I'm also a fan would you be able to do a brake down on what you did to your engine to make it run smoothly

[Adam]

In the track car we did an awful lot, throttle bodies, cams, balancing, head porting, etc, etc. But to get it to run smoothly you just need it properly mapped.

We have a nice package deal coming soon to fit throttle bodies to the VVC engine so watch this space :D

[BRMark]

I might be alone in this feeling but I bought the BRM for what it was, a unique limited edition car that just happened to have a fairly decent engine in as standard - I know people like to mod cars but to pull out whole engine to refit with one not actually designed for the car seems a bit beyond me, why not just buy a rover coupe turbo?

I'm not including the work Adam has done on his in this, because he's made a track car and built on what was already there and I think of that as progress. :)

[Arron]

that's what my dad said lol but i understand what you mean probably gonna go throttle body route seems the more sain route lol just wondering how much did it actually cost for you to do all that to your engine o and what bhp is it running now.

[black_sunrise]

the whole reason i love the T-16 conversions in a non standard car is the suprise factor. people just dont expect a R200 to be pushing over 200bhp.

You see a coupe and people know it could possibly be a turbo...

i love the whole N/A route but for me its just way too expensive to get big gains... i remember seeing a custom built N/A car on theMGZR.co.uk and it cost him close to £10k to get to 209bhp... to get that from a t-16 you have to buy a boost controller and a boost gauge and turn it to 12psi!

in all honesty on standard suspension you can tell the difference with the BRM with it having the extra weight up front but when i get some decent suspension sorted out it should matter all that much.

[Arron]

just curious but how much would it cost to do that conversion and if I'm not mistaken in saying that the brm engine is exactly the same as the 1.8 rover 200 non brm so really the engine its self is not special but the car its self is

[brmad]

If my lotto numbers come up I'm going for the Reyland VAG conversion 270bhp+ yumyum.
http://www.reyland.co.uk/Details.asp?ProductID=150#

[wgaffney]

how much that cost

[Adam]

just wondering how much did it actually cost for you to do all that to your engine o and what bhp is it running now.

Cost a fair whack, but it is a great drive. Both economical and punchy. Currently its pushing 193bhp, but there is more to come.

I'll be putting up package performance costs from TDR shortly.

[wgaffney]

you have to let me no adam i deffo have it done

[franktherabit]

...um, okay, i might be being relly dim hear but... i had an 2001 MGZR 160, am i right in thinking the only difference between the engine in that and the one in my BRM is an ecu and a throttle body?

...if so it's poss to buy a 2002 mgzr 160 engine and ecu for about 700 squid, 400 for fitting from a local mechanic, and i'm told that by 2002 they'd sorted the head gasket issues?

in which case an iduction kit and remap on that would surely get you maybe 170bhp and no increase in weight or even appearence under the bonnet (insurance!?)

feel free to correct me if i'm dilusional but that was kinda my plan for my BRM?
:smile2:

[Adam]

...um, okay, i might be being relly dim hear but... i had an 2001 MGZR 160, am i right in thinking the only difference between the engine in that and the one in my BRM is an ecu and a throttle body?



Slightly modified cylinder head, throttle bosy, ecu map, injectors...think that's about it off the top of my head.

Bear in mind though that the 160 and 145 k-series both have exactly the same amount of torque as standard.....coincidence or did MG-Rover slightly fudge the figures for the 160, i'll leave that for you to decide :D

There's a heap of things you can do to the BRM engine to unleash more ponies, in fact we've just done a K which retained the vvc mechs and ran on throttle bodies as well. Bear with me and prices will follow :D

[cosworth]

...um, okay, i might be being relly dim hear but... i had an 2001 MGZR 160, am i right in thinking the only difference between the engine in that and the one in my BRM is an ecu and a throttle body?

...if so it's poss to buy a 2002 mgzr 160 engine and ecu for about 700 squid, 400 for fitting from a local mechanic, and i'm told that by 2002 they'd sorted the head gasket issues?

in which case an iduction kit and remap on that would surely get you maybe 170bhp and no increase in weight or even appearence under the bonnet (insurance!?)

feel free to correct me if i'm dilusional but that was kinda my plan for my BRM?
:smile2:

first off - no. they never sorted head gasket issues. still fail as regular as clockwork. however the remedies got better. landrover head gasket set is a god send for them.

no point in changing 143 vvc to 160 vvc. no for the cost/performance. almost identical stats for both and your other point - the engines do look slightly different due to the rocker cover/coil packs.

differences in both engines were the 160 has a 52mm tb - triple cut valve seats - different ecu/map - some had different injectors but that means f all! - hardened big end shells - different pistons to uprate the compression (though on the early models this was achieved by a head skim!) - different exhaust manifold - very slightly different inlet manifold.

replace your standard exhaust manifold for the 160 one and your throttle body for the 52mm. you won`t be far from 160 spec. if you want more - go for an exhaust cam upgrade. that`s all you need on a vvc mate.:beer2:

[cosworth]

throttle bodies on a vvc aren`t a great combination adam. not a lot of gain.

[Adam]

throttle bodies on a vvc aren`t a great combination adam. not a lot of gain.

I don't know about that, ours produced good figures. Where do you take your evidence from?

[cosworth]

for the amount of money they cost including a suitable management - emerald - they aren`t a cost effective mod to keep a the vvc. i ran my old metro vvc on exige tb`s and an emerald. 2nd hand tb`s and a brand spanking emerald (over £1200 + mapping) - resulted in just over 170bhp. a mate who bought a standard engine from me went down the same route but used a different exhaust manifold and uprated cam saw 177bhp. he expected to be pushing 200bhp.

what did yours make?

[Adam]

We had 178 but it was running with a knackered fuel pump and using tesco value petrol. Other mods were a Janspeed exhaust system and ported head. The customer insisted on keeping his ITG filter, which was another hindrance to the effectiveness of the TB's.

If the customer had followed our advice and the fuel pump was working he could have comfortably seen 185 with those mods. So I do believe that throttle bodies on the VVC are very worthwhile to retain economy, gain performance and keep the costs down.

[cosworth]

i`d argue with you til the cows came home :D

[Adam]

Argue away, I'm always up for a challenge :D

Tuning the K-series is never a cheap thing to do, but it is essentially a race bred engine to begin with. Look at the construction of it...a sandwich design, stretched head bolts, wet liners, etc. it is an engine bred for racing but the problem was that Rover mass produced them in such a god-awful way they got a very bad reputation.

Now we've rebuilt quite a few and they have been top notch. Just look at our track car engine, it was given NO running in period, the second it was built and coolant flushed around it went onto the dyno for mapping. Its now covered approx 1k miles, 400 of which have been 'balls out' on track and its had no problems whatsoever.

I suppose my point is that its easy for people to ditch the K and chuck a heavy pig iron T into their car for immediate power gains, but a properly rebuilt and tuned K will be more than adequate for any 'bubble' MG-Rover.

[brmad]

Ad, feel free to use mine as a guinea pig to settle your argument. I'll let you have it for nothing lol.

[cosworth]

i agree 100%

i`ve built a t series turbo zr for a customer at a place i used to work. to be frank - i hate the t series. too tall - too heavy - with more common problems than the k!!

what i said was - on the vvc engine throttle bodies are not cost efficient.

[Adam]

Ad, feel free to use mine as a guinea pig to settle your argument. I'll let you have it for nothing lol.

Erm....let me think on that :shutup:


what i said was - on the vvc engine throttle bodies are not cost efficient.

Is any K-series tuning cost efficient? Not really. TB's on a vvc do give a good basis for future mods though. Fitting a TB kit with an emerald means you can retain the standard internals so keep some costs of tuning down. But in the future if you decide more power is needed its then only the internals that need addressing!

[black_sunrise]

I know what you're saying Adam. Tbh i would bloody love to keep it all N/A in the bubble but it just costs so bloody much. Just out of curiosity, what BHP & Torque figures would you expect to get from the throttle body upgrade that you have at TDR?

The only issue i can see with the T-Series is that its just heavy, throws the handling to pot. Other than that i love it, the torque is very handy, i can sit in 5th at 30mph and pull away like it's nothing. It doesnt help that in the BRM i have the LSD is nackered by the looks, understeers like hell when accelerating out of corners.

[cosworth]

ahhhh - just realised why you fight the tb case adam. i didn`t realise you worked with a company that sold them as an upgrade! a very expensive one at that!

[The Mole]

The way I see it, is over £2000 for the bits a full day taking the car to Walkers on a trailer, manufacturing parts, wiring, cant buy an airbox to fit a bubble shape, have to buy one an alter it, etc etc etc etc. I dont think thats expensive. I wonder if youve ever done the same job and how good was the finished article. Look at that track car to see what I mean.

[Adam]

ahhhh - just realised why you fight the tb case adam. i didn`t realise you worked with a company that sold them as an upgrade! a very expensive one at that!

Only on my very spare free days do I work there. Personally I think its a bargain as well, just depends if you're willing to have the job done properly or pay less to have it bodged.

[cosworth]

your arse! climb down off that high horse mate.

[garythesnail]

your arse! climb down off that high horse mate.

Maybe a little harsh there mr. Cosworth!

just depends if you're willing to have the job done properly or pay less to have it bodged.

Maybe a bit flippant there Boss Man?



I do believe that we do very often get what we pay for. Pay more - get more. Pay less - get less.

There are always exceptions. There are always individuals out to steal our money. I don't think either of the above genlemen fall in to this category.

Nighty night.

Gary.

[spankyban]

and anyways.. does it matter what the TB conversion that is offered by TDR costs..

The original post is ref a Turbo conversion in a BRM.

I understand we digress, however i can feel that we are about to step over the 'friendly banter' line. So lets not stray :offtopic:

The most popular conversion is the T series turbo. This has it's adv and disad.. heavy, pig iron but easy power avail, better appearered reliability.

They could be easier to pick up now as well due to the scrappage scheme.

My previous cars were all T16 turbo's a genunie R8 R400 T and a R600 which were all modded and if i'm honest the power and turbo kick very addictive, but i got bored.. i rediscovered the driver in me, and not that i recommend it (unless on private roads) i like apexing corners and feeling the LSD working in the BRM, all of which i would have struggled to do with the slightly cumbersome 600 and less point and squirtable 400.

If you go the T16 you will loose a lot of the driveability that makes the BRM what it is.*

*all of the above is IMO, it could very well be sh1te

[BRMark]

your arse! climb down off that high horse mate.

Spend a little more time here and I'm sure you'll realise Adam is nothing other than a genuine car lover and not whatever you think he is.

Don't forget he has tried and tested this at the expense of his own time and money before offering it to other people.

[garythesnail]

*all of the above is IMO, it could very well be sh1te

I like your style mr. spankyban :beer2:

[spankyban]

I like your style mr. spankyban :beer2:

Just because i have driven most of the T16 cars, modded them, played with them and understand cars and what the majority people are aiming to achieve by performing the conversions (being industry involved ALL of my working life, bt more OE now)

Still doesn't mean i know a single bean.:whistle:

However one thing i have seen recently is how quickly things can turn sour over misunderstood and poorly thought out internet forum responses.

People seem to forget that everything posted on places like this are either from people who know and people who don't. Everyone is allowed to express there opinion, however when it appears on the screen in front, they instantly think it's true...

It's not, it's from my experiance and my thoughts, which are probably total complete and utter sh1te.:)

Very profound from me and it's before 10am

[Adam]

your arse! climb down off that high horse mate.

If you have a problem with either myself or TDR then please PM me with your issues and I will be happy to discuss them.

No need to start getting offensive on a public forum.

[franktherabit]

We had 178 but it was running with a knackered fuel pump and using tesco value petrol. Other mods were a Janspeed exhaust system and ported head. The customer insisted on keeping his ITG filter, which was another hindrance to the effectiveness of the TB's.

If the customer had followed our advice and the fuel pump was working he could have comfortably seen 185 with those mods. So I do believe that throttle bodies on the VVC are very worthwhile to retain economy, gain performance and keep the costs down.

...can u explain a bit more please? ..What exactly is a throttle body, i thought i had a vauge idea but maybe not??

...and does anyone else have a very Ticky/knocky VVC? ..my ZR160 was totally quiet, my BRM sounds like a tractor, and it supposedly had a rebuild about 30k ago... are they a rougher sounding engine than was found in the 2001 ZR160's?

any info pleae!? :smile2:

[garythesnail]

Have a look at this website and it'll give you an idea

http://www.dvapower.co.uk/

I've no experience of the 160 engine, but both our BRM's are free of Knocking VVC mechanicals (at the moment at least!)

[burrows]

I also have a tickety tick tick..... but have never known what it is so just turned the vol up on the radio! Just looked at that website Gary but it means diddly squat to me I'm afraid.

[garythesnail]

Scroll down the page and hit the 'fitting jenvey throttle bodies" for a pic or better still, click http://kengine.dvapower.com/ , hold ctrl+F keys and type in "individual bodies", click OK and start reading - it's a bit boring if the technicalities don't float your boat, but there's some nice photos showing different throttle body arrangements.

I'm a bit out of my depth here, but essentially, our BRMs (some notable examples excepted) have a single throttle sharing the air sucked in between each of the four cylinders. By installing throttle bodies and setting up properly, each cylinder will have its own throttle and capable of feeding more air to that cylinder than the original system is capable of (more air means more fuel means bigger bang means goes faster :))

I'm sure a techy member will be along shortly to correct any inaccuracies. ;)

[spankyban]

I also have a tickety tick tick..... but have never known what it is so just turned the vol up on the radio! Just looked at that website Gary but it means diddly squat to me I'm afraid.

The VVC mech will 'rattle' it is a common and known fault.

Normal ways of curing it is turn up the radio as said or replace the mechs, but as all will be 2nd hand you don't know what you are getting!

[franktherabit]

..VVC mech eh?

so do they tend to keep running for a decent mileage despite the tickety tick?

[spankyban]

..VVC mech eh?

so do they tend to keep running for a decent mileage despite the tickety tick?

Define decent... Dad's ZR's ticked from 0 - currently 42 + ooo miles.

Mates R200 VI is on just over 100,000 (he has had it from new)